Fundacja im. Stefana Batorego

International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Victor Yushchenko, MP

Leader of faction "Nasha Ukraina" (Our Ukraine), former premier-minister of Ukraine

What means "Ukraine's European choice" for you?

The character of discussion that takes place in Ukraine concerning vector of European integration surprises me much. Because to my mind, there were made many mistakes, which brought about perverted vision of discussion's subject in social and even political dialogue. Often it is impossible to understand, about what, about what criteria and what choice this discussion is. That is, what we choose, and what the subject of our discussion is? The policy of last years didn't make us understand, what choice is the best for Ukrainian future. I'm convinced that Ukraine's choice lies not in geographical dimension, where to move — either to the East, or to the West, but in the other main criterion — what is the best for a person and society.

When we talk about European way, we mean the standards of democracy, open civil society, and market rules that we want to get. The choice of both state and a person lies in a simple formula — it is necessary to choose the best. Everyone understands, that one should head for best standards and best achievements. I'm sure, that the system of values, which Europe demonstrates today in realization of economy, open and clear competition, and high social standards — is a right way. But speaking integrally, we shouldn't idealize European path and perceive it only like positive one; we should realize cautions that appear on this uneasy way. The main thing is what European choice proposes in the field of organization of society, economy — these things Ukraine needs very much.

Obstacles of Ukraine's integration to EU

Internal obstacle is the most important. Ukraine lacks for political will to accept European values. Speaking about outer obstacles, they, probably, exist, but I wouldn't call it an obstacle, because everyone understands, that Europe needs Ukraine and doesn't renounce it. It is not being discussed in Europe, whether one should invite Ukraine to what is called European house. Instead of this there is a question in Europe, whether it is necessary to invite Ukraine in the state, like it is today, or not? Surely, the answer is — no. For someone it looks like, as if there is an outer component of the problem, why we are not in Europe, but the real reason is in crucial internal component.

If to determine the rating of problems that prevent following the European way, I would put on the first place a tremendous deficit of political will. In order to profess the course of European economical integration, we must start the process with adoption of political decision that can be formulated only in consolidated, harmonized society, where exist the leadership of the right and deep political structuring, and where power follows democratic methods. That is when on the civil level and the level of political forces there takes place harmonization of feelings and ideology regarding European choice.

What means acceptance of European choice? It means to put to ourselves many questions. Maybe most of them are not pleasant, but this is that discipline, that organization, without which we can talk about Ukraine's European choice for many years, but we won't feel ourselves as a European state. These are changes that are to be made in the field of internal policy, law, economy, and investments. Are we ready for it? Let's talk about this and about the main obstacle on this path. I'm sure, that today the power is the crucial hindrance, because it has not will for consolidation and formation of community and political forces.

What is, in your opinion, the contribution of your country in Europe's future; and what is Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in European political, economical and social processes?

The greatest value for Europe with regard to Ukraine — is to see Ukraine a democratic, predictable and clear state in carrying out of internal policy. Figuratively speaking, it's important for Europe to understand, where this country is moving. Or maybe it really goes through the period of feudalism and nomadic tribes, which in herds, depending on weather, move half a season to the East, and then half a season to the West. I didn't meet politicians, who would say, that Europe is not interested in Ukraine.

If we recall Warsaw conference in autumn last year on relations between Ukraine and EU, then I would like to remind a key thesis by Javier Solana, that Ukraine shouldn't play with European rules, but play by European rules. Undoubtedly, possible Ukraine's role is highly assessed in Europe; the majority of political players of Europe see Ukraine as a European country.

Frankly speaking, I don't understand, why there exist discussions in Ukrainian society on theme "who are we": Europeans or not Europeans. Questions like this shouldn't appear even at a subconscious level, because we were and will be Europeans. But now there takes place a process of political choice, when political power that declared European course as successful one, especially during the first term of ruling of President Kuchma, now is unable to realize European perspective. As a result we can see, that the maximum that Europeans can give us today — is to recognize us as neighbours.

This is a geographical status, and since we are a geographical center of Europe, carrying out of discussions, whether we are Europeans or not, is to some extent humiliating. If a question like this was put to, for example, Poles, I think a great number of representatives of this nation would just take offence at such definitions and actions, which have not clear philosophy.

Today's EU expansion and its influence on Ukraine.

The positive is, that expansion of EU is evidence of ideology of formation of European economical space. This idea captivates new economical partners, especially those, who are in Eastern Europe. I think, that through this way take place organization and improvement of economical and political-social choice of states that are being involved in EU. This is an original way to improvement of standards, which pass the states of a new wave. In general, it's difficult to realize everything that concerns Ukraine's destiny, because today the borders of Ukraine and European Union are already common. Ukraine has this problem because of its policy and deficit of democracy. There is a lack of social and economical standards that could be evidence that this country can pretend to a status of really strategic partnership, integration and membership.

This situation testifies, that this is a way that is to be passed. I remind, that during the conversation with the President of Poland Kwasniewski, he recollected, that for five years Poles, aiming to adapt to new rules of European market, faced the necessity of adoption of approximately 250 new laws and a thousand of amendments to the laws currently in force. The Poles did this, in order to unite their life with EU. We coped with around forty laws in direction of integration to European legislation. Maybe it is not a bad result, as the state has not only lagged behind in development, it has untalented politicians with respect to their country, that discords with Europe spirit in itself. On the other hand, this situation testifies, what great work we must do at us.

The necessity of adoption of tens or hundreds of laws and rules put some thought into our minds, that the state needs consolidated political force that would form an effective power, in order that the power realized political will for changes of European character. Therefore both parliament and government could ensure by the way of these changes adoption of effective legislation — through political consolidation. However, unfortunately, every month we feel, that we find ourselves in buffer zone of Europe — because of this indefinite, inconsequent and irresponsible policy.

What is your attitude to the slogan "to Europe along with Russia"?

Frankly speaking, I don't understand this idea, because from standpoint of economical and political readiness, we can say, that Russia achieved much more on the way of integration to Europe, than we did. How can we put someone on our underdeveloped level of legislation, if other party feels much more modern and confident? One can find only one common thing: both Russia and Ukraine will be perceived by European party exceptionally on the basis of their internal state.

Of course, when these questions coincide in time and spirit, then it is not out of place to talk about some actions that happen in unison. However, one may not talk about common schedules of modernization of political, economical, and fiscal rules of Ukraine and Russia. Each state faces very specific tasks and responsibility, therefore thoughts about common steps appeared as a result of primitive understanding of the way of each country to Europe. Ukraine and Russia have their political will, which depending on effectiveness and success will allow to realize European choice.