Fundacja im. Stefana Batorego

International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Taras Voznyak

An editor-in-chief of magazine "Yi", adviser of a head of Lviv Oblast State Administration, Lviv

What means "Ukraine's European choice" for you?

European choice means for me those standards of society's and individual's life, those opportunities of individual's realization that are in European Union — in the widest aspect, starting with personal and economical freedom, and finishing with possibility of associating with a great deal of European cultures.

How would you determine subjective and objective obstacles of Ukraine on its way toward Europe?

Undoubtedly, the reason of our slow integration to European community is the post-Soviet heritage; on the other hand — it's a great tradition of unstatehood, being in indefinite space, when destiny of the nation and of a personality was decided without our participation.

The obstacles of local character are as follows: uncertainty of EU concerning adaptation of states — starting with Poland, and finishing with Albania. I don't understand, why Albania (apart from Turkey) can be EU member, and Ukraine cannot.

Another obstacle for Ukraine is, that our state isn't independent in its choice and its preferences. Influence of the Russian Federation, a great state that is close to us and controls many spheres in Ukrainian life, from economy to information space, hampers Ukraine's moving toward EU. Russia considers Ukraine to be its satellite; but Russia itself doesn't express its wish to be EU member, however, in the long term it will have to cooperate with EU.

What is, in your opinion, the contribution of your country in Europe's future; and what is Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in European political, economical and social processes?

To my mind, EU is not only an economic union, or a union like it is today. The problem of European security is extremely serious; the question concerning effectiveness of its eastern regions or those states that belong to Central Europe and are EU members depends on the situation at the borders, the situation at new members. If Ukraine is unstable, if Belarus remains, as it is today, success of EU policy in this direction will be under big question mark. And in this connection stability of Ukraine, its benevolence and good level of cooperation is, what it will be able to contribute to EU. Moreover, I think that soon the question about energy supply will become extremely actual, because Ukraine, as a transport passage for various energy carriers, can be not only from Russia, but also from Central Asia, Southern Caucasus, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan. This is a great chance for EU.

In my opinion, European Union is not ready for the tasks, which it will soon face — partly because of small-minded thinking, when Portugal owing to competition cannot admit, for instance, Moldova that can pretend to money from European funds for agriculture or rise of living standard. In the course of time EU will rise up to the height of its tasks, especially since the time passes swiftly, and events that take place in Iraq, diversification of oil supply, or vice versa, narrowing of the field, which energy carries can get from and exhausting of natural resources will at long last make EU cooperate with Ukraine.

Thinking about the question, what is unique in Ukraine, I came to conclusion confirmed by Dutchmen, that natural resource of Ukraine is its soil, real humus. It is an inexhaustible resource, which has been giving life to people for hundreds of years. Now, unfortunately, we waste air, water, soil and other resources in vain.

Today's EU Enlargement and its influence on Ukraine.

I think, Ukraine should unambiguously welcome EU expansion; and the fact, that our neighbours Poland, Hungary, Czechia, and soon Slovakia and Romania will join EU — is only a positive moment. EU expansion isn't only a creation of the economic union that will regulate the processes of economical development. This is society's development, and the zone of stability. In the nearest future EU will create its security organizations, and the closer the spheres of repose, peace and prosperity are to us, the better it is. Besides, the fewer mediators and buffer zones of various kinds are between EU and us, the better it is as well. Of course, we need to adapt our legislation, the structure of businesses, social life forms, and political mechanisms. If they are adequate and commensurable to EU norms, the question of entry into EU won't be a problem. Even in case, if Ukraine won't be formally EU member, like Norway or Switzerland, which are not administratively EU members, but de facto they are included in common system, starting with economy, and finishing with cultural aspects.

To my mind, Europeans get reinsured too much. As a matter of principle, they could promise future membership without discussing the time, when it should take place. It was important for us to hear this phrase. But as it hasn't been said, they are lack of breadth of views, and this is their big mistake.

The role of neighbouring countries, which soon must become EU members (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia), in realization of Ukraine's European choice.

I think, that the interest of Poland, Slovakia and Hungary is what they will come to EU with? For instance, will Poland export its production only to Sweden or Germany? Substantially, this is idealism. Poland's political and historical perspective is first of all the East. The East is widely interpreted: not only Ukraine, but also Belarus and Russia. Even Germany's interests are directed to Russia, according to economical circumstances; and on the other hand — to Belarus that is a transport passage. Therefore in my opinion, what Poland was for Germany, we will be for Poland to some extent, and the perspective of cooperation is mutually beneficial. One shouldn't think, that Poland will be our attorney in Europe, owing to its emotional thoughts — it is beyond its national interests. Poland is interested in development of relations with its eastern partners.

An effective way of Ukraine towards European structures: independently or along with Russia?

In administrative sense it's a full recklessness to talk about movement toward Europe together with someone. It can be perceived as obscuring of issue or informational diversion. Russia doesn't declare its wish to be in EU. As Gebbels said: "The stupider the phrase is, and the oftener it is repeated, the closer it is to the truth", but "the truth" means disinformation. Ukraine put itself a task to enter EU, so it must cooperate with Russia and other countries, but to enter EU along with Russia — is just recklessness.

The problems of visas and migration from Ukraine to EU.

First of all, introduction of visas is a necessary phenomenon. It was resolved by former EU members, and new members should just fulfil it. We believe that this process will adjust the situation at the border, but on the other hand we are afraid, that there will take place the collapse of human relations. For example, businessmen or scientists will be able to get that visa; but as 6 — 6,5 million of people cross the border every year, all consulates of Poland in Ukraine won't be able to issue such quantity of visas. One should seek ways, in order that intercourse between societies didn't break.

As to migration, then one should remember for an example that thousands of Poles moved to Germany, France, and the USA, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians work in Poland, Czechia, Italy and Portugal. For a long term Ukraine — is a state, which people should come to, a state, in which there takes place depopulation, and in several years we will need those people, who leave, and will replenish them rather from Kazakhstan and China (under different calculations, there are from one to two million of citizens from these countries in Ukraine), than from Europe. So, this is a natural process, when a part of Ukrainians migrates to the West, while there is a migration to us from the East. These are objective processes, which one cannot stop. That's why the West slightly dissembles talking, that EU is closed for migrants. In fact, European Union is getting older, and it needs both lowly and highly qualified manpower.

What would you advise to change in the policy of EU concerning Ukraine?

I would open a perspective for Ukraine (though it is long-term), having conditioned it by changes that are to take place in Ukraine, I would restruct helping funds that act in the territory of Central Europe, for instance PHARE. I would change ineffective TACIS that hasn't fulfilled its task and isn't actual in Ukraine. I would try to soften social situation in the nearest to the future EU borders regions, at our western and their eastern border, in order that there wasn't a tremendous drop in people's welfare, because it can cause biased attitude of nationalities on different sides of border, as well as hostility and, eventually, conflicts.

Today's state and outlook of European business in Ukraine, and Ukrainian business in EU.

Ukrainian market is different: there is a labour market, that is supply and manpower that are in Ukraine, their cost. Now we are already watching transference of a number of businesses from the countries that are EU members, for instance Poland, Hungary and Czechia to Ukraine's territory. Often these are not Polish or Hungarian enterprises, but German or French, which started production on these territories. Now these businesses are being transferred to Ukraine's territory. For example, "Leoni AG" (40 mln. EURO of investment) that produces electrical equipment for "Opel". This enterprise is transferred form Poland. When the cost of manpower was cheap, this business was developing there. Now this business is being transferred to Lviv region, to Stryi, and from Hungary — to Transcarpathian region. Business has its laws. On the other hand, we have low purchase capacity; therefore EU is interested in the rise of our purchasing power.

As to Ukrainian business and its opportunities in the European economical space; let's take as an example Lviv region — with 40% of export in EU countries, and 50% of import of our production from EU. One should aspire for expansion of such situation to other regions of Ukraine. During the last years there is observed an annual decrease of export-import exchange with Russia by 3%; at the same time there takes place a 3% increase of trade with EU. If we reach the parity of 30% from both sides, it will mean not only an economic balance, but also a political (owing to economical) independence.

Common and differences between Ukraine and "western culture". Is Ukraine a part of the Western World?

What common with classical Europe does Moslem Albania have? Or Greece, which in mental respect is farther in the East, than Ukraine. What common does Romania have, except Latin alphabet? Comparing some Romania's provinces with Ukraine, I come to conclusion that somewhere Ukraine looks like "Germany".

Europe is very heterogeneous. I am against repetition of Huntington myths, when he referred Russia and Ukraine to Orthodox-Islamite world, because there is very little common between Ukraine and Saudi Arabia. These all are artificial schemes that recently were actualised, when EU had set objectives and clearly described them. It was very noticeable, with what "pleasure" newly Slavophils, starting with Igrunov and finishing with Okara make fun, that Ukraine will be in a bad position, as well as all others. Undoubtedly, Ukraine is an organic part of Europe.

If cultural aspect is important for Okara, then expansion, for instance, of baroque, real, not like Vasyliy Blazhennyi Cathedral, had place not further Ukraine and Belarus. Expansion of baroque culture, Latin language, Catholicism, the Renaissance, and humanism that were not in Russia, but prospered in Ukraine and Belarus. And then was forming Ukrainian national self-consciousness with origins from medieval academies of Ostrog, Lviv, and Kyiv. It's important to know Ukraine's history better, come on the excursions to Ukrainian cities, and visit not only governmental and administrative institutions, but also historical places, such as Kyiv-Pechersk Monastery and many others.