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International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Borys Tarasyuk

Ambassador, MP, head of the Committee on European Integration of Supreme Rada (Parliament) of Ukraine, director of the Institute for Euro-Atlantic Cooperation

Let's start with a very general question: what does "the European choice of Ukraine" means for you personally and for you as politician and the citizen of this country?

While preparing my answer to this question I immediately started to think it over weather it is my personal or in a wider sense but I cannot distinguish my personal perception of European choice from that the view of the citizen, the view of the politician and the professional sense. Well, the European choice for Ukraine means the civilization return of Ukraine to united European space. It means the assertion of European together with the Ukrainian identity. It means the adhering to the family of all European nations. It means that my children and my grandchildren will enjoy the preferences of the citizens of united Europe including the level of prosperity, the social protection, the level of human rights protection, the level and the possibility of realization of the creativity. So it the European choice for me means that this is, well, the choice of a target which means the construction of democratic rule of law, socially oriented state of a European model. The model which has proven its success on the example of the EU as such and European countries-members of this union in particular. And this model has proven it's higher effectiveness in comparison with other models and it's obvious preference over so called "wage duration model" which the one we used to try in the Soviet Union. Well, the European choice means also in my understanding the final cutting of the ties with the, so to say, communist past of Ukraine and cutting of the ties with current negative trends in political system, functioning of the branches of powers in Ukraine and authoritarian trends in Ukraine. So that means, well, the European choice in my understanding.

Thank you, and what is the concrete pragmatic reason for Ukraine to be integrated into European space? And may be something about obstacles?

Contra to other Central and Eastern European states Ukraine had to do simultaneously a lot of extra job in comparison with Central and Eastern European countries, our neighbors. So first of all we have to assert and construct ourselves as an independent country, which was, not detest before other Central and Eastern European states. Well, the country and the state which have not many of the features of the independent state, so we had to create our own national elite capable of secure development of our own country and it's economy because we were apart of the economy of the former Soviet Union but we were not independently developing the economy unlike in the cases of other Central and Eastern European countries. We had unlike those countries simultaneously to transfer from socialist model of economy into the market economy, which was the common test for us and for these countries. We were not able during the first eighty years of our development as an independent country to run our economy. Just one figure: in 1993 the inflation was as high as 10.000 per cent. And among the reasons why we are not that successful in European integration — that is the cutting off the government's activity in European integration from the declared, well, target, declared objective of European integrations, so there were a lot of declarations but there was a few concrete work done by the government. The corporate and clan interests are taking upper hand over the national interests and here I can prefer to the problems with the PCA implementation which was exclusively Ukraine designed problems in our relationship with the EU. And the reason why it is so — because the clans by their nature objectively are not interested in the European model of development of Ukraine because otherwise they will be deprived of the super-profits for investing nothing and acting in the shadow economy. Among other reasons I would mention the inconsistency in the activity of Ukraine and the executive power of Ukraine. Well, for example, the WTO, we have managed to create a lot of problems, instead of moving towards membership, we have created the problems which are making our way for membership even more difficult, like the decision taken by Ukraine as to the preferences for some foreign company auto industry, like the problems created by ourselves in terms of the export of some kind of agricultural products, in the export of metal scrap for example, so, a lot of problems in the area of intellectual property rights. And these are the problems not only on the way of our membership to the WTO but the problems of our relationship with EU. So they were originated by Ukraine. We had and still have the problems with democracy and during last years even more problems with democracy unlike in economy. And just a few examples: the falsifications in maneuvering over the elections which has been proven during the year 2002; what is happening over mass media, human rights, the cases of Gongadge, Oleksandrov have not been investigated properly. A lot of rumors and substantial, I would say, evidences are putting a lot of question marks over the actions of the authorities. We had and still have the problems with the functioning of the institutions of democracy, which is one of the prerequisite for any country to join EU — that is the good functioning of institutions of democracy. We have a very weak development of the institutions of the civil society in Ukraine. And the last but not least we have a conceptual uncertainness on the part of the EU as to the future of our relationship. So these are some of the major reasons and the problems of our way to the European integration. Certainly if there is a need to speak about the reasons why Ukraine had to be inseparable part of the European integration process, this has been answered to my mind during the first cluster of question — why the European choice.

So let's talk about the reasons for Europe to integrate Ukraine. How can you argue the reasons that Ukraine is necessary for present and future Europe? What is the contribution of your country into the European political, economic processes?

I would say that Ukraine already has contributed and continues to contribute into the common objectives of the Europeans and this is first of all the sphere of stability and security where Ukraine has already contributed and continues to contribute. In Balkans Ukraine was participant from the very beginning in all major peacekeeping and peace-enforcing operations in Balkans starting from Croatia, then Bosnia-Herzegovina, now in Kosovo. Then Ukraine is an institutional peace guarantor in Transdniestria conflict together with Russia and OSCE and it is active in trying to bring the peace to the conflict areas in Caucasus. Ukraine is well known but it is not that often spoken, in it's ability to bring peace and harmony to interethnic relationship and in doing so Ukraine has indicated the example of behavior towards national minorities. And remember that at the beginning of nineties Ukraine and Hungary were the first to create a bilateral document on national minorities and after that other countries of Central and Eastern Europe followed our examples. So that means that Ukraine can project it's own ability to establish inter-ethnic harmony to the rest of Europe.

Ukraine is a powerful agricultural and industrial country and that means that Ukraine is both the source of the exports to the markets of the countries of the EU and a candidate countries and at the same time Ukraine is a rather powerful market 48,5 million customers. In joining EU or being apart of the European integration process Ukraine is directly facilitating the spreading of the stability and democracy and prosperity to the East of Europe. Ukraine is in the center of Europe and it is logical that Ukraine has to be inseparable part of the European integration processes. Let's not forget that Ukraine is in terms of territory the largest European country, not mention European part of Russia, and Ukraine is number 5 in terms of population European nation. Ukraine by its geopolitical situation is a connecting link between North and South of Europe, between West and East, and in a larger extent between Europe and Asia.

Ukraine has well educated labor force, which was, is and will be in need not only in Ukraine but in other countries and the search of our software specialists is one of the examples.

Thank you, so let's talk about the enlargement. How can you evaluate the present situation on enlargement of EU and Eastern policy of EU in general? May be the question about the role of future new members (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic) is connected to this.

I would distinguish that there are unlike in case of NATO enlargement with our immediate neighbors to the West being members of NATO, in case of EU enlargement we are facing a lot of problems, which are actually in direct relevance to our basic national economic interests, in basic interests of Ukrainian people. There are some negative consequences of EU enlargement.

That is first of all the perspective of introduction of visa regime for our citizens who would certainly impede the ability of our citizens to visit neighboring countries with the purpose of visiting their relatives, with the purpose of tourism, with the purpose of economic tourism and this would certainly hamper the interests of our citizens. Than we would have a different trade regime with traditional partners to the West, with our partners, the largest one is Poland, Hungary, Slovakia so it will create a new trade regime within those countries as a members of the EU will create additional problems for our business community. And in addition the enlargement of the EU at the expense of our immediate neighbors to the West would present an additional sociological feeling of the conservation of our distance from the EU.

Among the positive elements of the EU enlargement I may refer to the following that first of all EU is becoming our immediate neighbor. Not only Ukraine is becoming immediate neighbor of EU but EU for Ukraine is becoming immediate neighbor. So this very fact may create the advantages in terms of trans-border cooperation, including trans-border trade.

In the new EU members we are requiring additional advocates of interests of Ukraine within EU. Well, the enlargement of the EU made by expense of our immediate neighbors is a kind of stimulus for introduction of European standards for Ukraine in order not to lose our traditional partners to the West — that means new members of the EU.

And further as to our neighbors, they can and in fact do demonstrate a positive role in realization of Ukrainian-European integration interests. And this positive role is being played and demonstrated first of all by Poland. In 1998 we initiated together with the Foreign Minister Geremek the permanent Ukrainian-Polish conference on the European integration, the major purpose of which was to give the possibility for the Ukrainian experts to acquire the experience to their Polish counterparts who have covered this road towards EU membership. This proven to be a very useful mechanism of our cooperation.

In terms of some of our neighbors we had a very, so to say, well calculated, well weighted attitude towards Ukraine, first of all from Poland again and Hungary. Well, this can be demonstrated in terms of a very active role by Poland of bringing Ukraine closer to the EU and NATO and by both, Poland and Hungary not being debt quick introducing visa regime for Ukrainian citizens, unlike for example Slovakia or some other neighbors which are not on the forefront of the EU membership. The role our neighbors can play its very important role in the sense that they have the experience, which is worth well to use by Ukraine.

What do you think about the slogan: "To Europe together with Russia"?

This is a very harmful slogan, and I personally categorically reject this slogan as a policy guideline for Ukraine, because we have absolutely different objectives in our foreign policy, we have absolutely different statuses as countries. Unlike Russia Ukraine is purely European nation and it's identity is together with other European nations. Unlike Ukraine Russia has never put the objective of joining EU. So these are arguments against following this wrong way of our foreign policy and it would be appropriate to refer to the position of the leaders of Russian government (for instance, Khristenko) who themselves refer to this idea as a political provocation because they never ever put the objective of joining EU.

Then the issue of visas and migration, you told about this, may be you can expand this topic?

Yeah, actually this is one of the largest problems we are facing in connection with the EU enlargement to our Western borders. First of all because this is the problem of peoples contacts. So, people to people contact is the matter for both Ukrainians and their relatives and friends in Poland, in Hungary, Slovakia and other neighboring countries and we have to create the maximum favorable and easy conditions for our citizens to travel. The practice of introduction of visa regime on the part of some of our neighbors proves that in principle the introduction of visa regime diminish the visits by Ukrainian citizens to neighboring countries. For example, after Slovakia introduced visa regime, the of Ukrainians visiting this country reduced by 1/3, from 750000 in 1999 to 250000 in 2001. Then the same is being expected by some experts in case of Poland but in 2001 we had 4,8 million Ukrainians visiting Poland alone. So that means that this figure will be reduced by twice at least. So that means by 2,4 million Ukrainians fewer will visit neighboring Poland than before. The economic tourism will suffer and as a result the revenues for the neighboring countries, economies of neighboring countries will suffer as well. The experts foresee the reduction of approximately 1 billion US dollars out of the reduction of visiting Ukrainians to Poland, which is a rather substantial figure.

Migration is a very sensitive issue both for Ukraine and the countries of the European Union and EU as such. What do we have in this phenomenon? We have, or at least we had mainly illegal migrants entering countries of the EU for that or another reason and then living in those countries and being employed illegally. As a result they are suffering most, not the countries of the EU, far from that. If they are being employed there as illegal migrants — so that means that there is a demand in those countries, and authorities are not doing there best in order not to allow this kind of business going. And at the same time thousands and thousand of Ukrainians because of this illegal status are suffering because they cannot ask for the protection on the part of the authorities and our own consular offices abroad. So what should be done here?

As in case of Portugal we have to provide for those Ukrainian citizens working abroad illegally the opportunity to legalize first of all their status and to create the conditions for them, appropriate protection for them. We have to regulate together with the EU and EU member states this process with our concerted actions on the part of the Ukrainian authorities and EU authorities. So this is the way out.

And if you were EU official responsible for its policy towards Ukraine, what would you change in this policy?

I would change a lot. For instance, first of all I would establish clear-cut concept of the future of our relationship, which doesn't, exists at the moment on the part of the EU. Meaning the clear concept which is sometimes is being announced but without a clear official position. That means that if the country meets the Copenhagen criteria for membership of the EU — it is going to be considered as a candidate for EU membership. It was the case of European Parliament, which on March 15 2001 approved a comprehensive resolution on the relationship with Ukraine in which it for the first time specified that if Ukraine meets Copenhagen criteria it could be considered as a candidate for association. So unlike European parliamentarians the executive part of the EU never went as far. So I would change this first of all.

Then I would do my best in order to prevent EU officials from making provocative statements as to the future of the EU-Ukrainian relationship which used to be the case quite recently on the part of the President of the European Commission, Mr. Romano Prodi, by the commissioner Gunter Verheugen (It is about statements that Ukraine will probably never become the EU member — editor). I think that this does not serve the purpose in content of our relationship but which obviously spoils the atmosphere of our relationship and serves to nobody's purpose, just provoking the comments on both sides.

So I would then establish the policy of step by step approach towards Ukraine resolving one problem after another and does bringing our relationship closer to the objective we see as a common like the PCA foresees for example the concluding of free trade area agreement.

By the way, the same idea was recently announced by expert Anders Aslund in his article in Financial Times of February 17 where he put as an objective, an a priority for EU to facilitate entry into the WTO of Ukraine and concluding the free trade area agreement with Ukraine. So this are the major points I would do being on the EU side.

The next question is about business. It is widely recognized that business links are very important for real integration. So what do you think about the present and the desirable future of business cooperation between European business and Ukrainian business, and what is the main obstacle to push this cooperation forward?

Well, before answering in substance to your question, I would like to refer to the same article by Anders Aslund who to my mind traced and analyzed very interesting figures of Ukraine among others non-aspirant yet countries of the EU together with Russia, Moldova, Kyrghyzstan, Armenia and he noticed very interesting tendency that the closer the countries are to the EU, the less volume of their trade or part of their trade is with EU. And this is very interesting figures. He analyze that: for example Ukraine's share in trade with EU countries, year 2000, was 16% which I claimed not to be correct one. To my mind the share was close to 20 % in the year 2000. Otherwise it is very difficult to expect such a big increase since 2000 to 2002 — it's 23%. So I think that this is a mistake in figures but anyhow. And of Moldova's export to the EU this is 20% of its total export; Russia's, Armenia's and Kyrghyz's exports are up to 35%; and the export of Azerbaijan constitutes around 60%. So what is interesting: he traced the composition of this export, he found out that in other cases unlike Ukraine they have only raw materials exporting to the countries of the EU like Azerbaijan is exporting oil, Kyrghyzstan is exporting gold, Armenia is exporting diamonds, Russia is exporting oil and gas. But unlike those countries the structure of Ukrainian export to the EU countries is much more interesting because this is the export of so-called middle group of goods, this is export of steel products, agricultural products, chemicals and textiles. So this is very important and very substantial difference.

If I'm not mistaken the share of the countries of the EU in external trade of Ukraine is something around 22-23%; the share of Ukraine in the external trade of the EU countries is, if I'm not mistaken, something 0.5 — 0.7. So that means that we have a lot to do in order to prove the declared European integration course. So what are the problems? The problems are mainly with Ukraine. At the end of 1999 Ukraine managed to manifest 22 concrete facts of violation of it's obligation as to the PCA. Among major violations is the trade with the agricultural products, the car production, metal scrap and intellectual property rights.

What do we have as a problem on the part of the EU — we have the protectionism against our most competitive goods like agricultural products. And last year was the prove of this, when Ukraine sharply increased it's export of grain to the EU countries, so immediately we faced the protectionist measures. EU is consistently trying to protect its market from Ukrainian low enriched uranium.

And in addition I think that Ukraine and Ukrainian government has to do a lot in order to change the structure of our trade especially to increase the share of trade services not only of transportation but considerably increase, according to the tendencies of the world external trade, the share of tourism services — it is increasing sharply recent years in many countries. Till now it is not the case in Ukraine. And in terms of production instead of doing, you know, just steel for pipes Ukraine has to change the structure of its production. For instance, the production of different office equipment is of a great demand. So why not to make out of steel, we are producing, the products, which are of a higher, price, so to say, end products but not middle ones.

And in the end let's come back from concrete to conceptual. So if Ukraine is a real part of Western world?

Well, taking over my answer to your question I caught myself in a linguistic or philosophical meaning — what do we mean under the word "West" and "Western culture"? Is it legitimate to use such term as a "Western culture" or "Western world"? It seems to me that we have to operate with such mean as European values, and otherwise we may enter the discussion which I recently was a part of, about European countries and the countries of the EU claiming that EU actually is Europe. But Europe is not just 15 countries, Europe even not just 25 countries, Europe is 47 countries, Ukraine including, we are in the center of Europe. This is a kind of, I would say, philosophical approach: what do we consider ourselves to be.

From my point of view, historically we are inseparable part of European culture. And European history as such I'm aren't talking about medieval ages when Ukraine was a rather influential country, I mean Kyivska Rus, having family ties with many royal families of Europe, France, Nordic countries. And this already made us inseparable part of giant European culture. Certainly if we are talking about European culture we have to talk about the culture of every nation and of every people, perhaps, not having it's nation but being people with their own identity and the culture.

Certainly in this sense Ukraine has it's own culture, it's own tradition but a question is: is this culture something alien to the European culture? Either it is apart of European culture or it is a case of European diversity of cultures? I think that the second answer would be correct. Ukrainian culture is inseparable part of European diversity of cultures and it was developing in Europe in communication with other European Slavic and not only Slavic nations. Ukrainians were developing there culture in relationship with the cultures for example of Germans, Greeks, Polls, Bulgarians, Jews and many other representatives of nationalities. And one has to take into account that if we are talking about European culture civilizationally in terms of religion, Ukraine has a predominant Christian religion. In Ukraine like in any part of Europe, there is a difference is that we have Orthodox Christianity but this is Christianity too. So this relates us definitely to European civilization and the question is that we have to return to this family of European nations in civilization terms, in terms of democracy, in terms of sharing the same values as has been established in much more democratic and much more prosperous Western Europe being united by the EU or NATO.

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