Fundacja im. Stefana Batorego

International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Natalia Sumska

Leading actress of Ivan Franko National Theatre, people's artist of Ukraine, theatre and movie actress.

What means "Ukraine's European choice" for you?

A question about understanding of Ukraine's European choice is rather difficult and polysemantic. Talking about European choice, political scientists mean one thing, politicians — may, other things, and citizens, probably, think about better, easier and wealthier life for themselves and their families. I personally anxious about the questions connected with positive changes in culture. European civilization and European culture have an ancient and rich history, an enormous store that attracts very much. And for me Ukraine's European choice first of all means study and mastering of useful experience that is already gained by European civilization. Of course, I don't mean simple aping of the other's experience. It's very important to arrange bilateral contacts between Ukrainian and European partners, especially in the field of culture. Unfortunately, there are a few such contacts in cultural sphere. Probably, on the personality level they exist and develop, but, for instance, Ivan Franko National Theatre during the last years feels lack of these contacts, concert tours and common creative projects. But in this cooperation there is an exchange of valuable information, the bearers of which are the people of art, culture, and which language is intelligible to artists without interpretation.

In order that we feel ourselves as a part of European civilization, it's necessary to learn an elementary thing — culture. Of course, Ukrainian culture is very ancient, unique and rich, but there is another aspect of culture — I mean everyday, political and legal — as you like. But in general I'm conscious, that this scenario is counted on long-term outlook, and we are to make many steps, in order that integrally perceive and introduce in our day-to-day life European values as an integral component, because knowing and having a clear idea of how Europeans behave is not enough. One should make this behaviour an inner need of a person, at that any person, and this isn't an action of one week or even year.

Reasons and obstacles of Ukraine's participation in the processes of European integration.

I'm not a specialist in the field of political science, — and this question is to be addressed to the specialists, — but I think, that the main obstacle of Ukraine's approach to Europe is lack of money at the majority of population, that doesn't give an opportunity to satisfy even elementary material wants, apart from spiritual ones. As a result, the locks are closed for us. On the other hand, the presence of oligarchy that possesses quite much funds, builds palaces worthy to receive within its precincts those of royal decent — isn't a secret for us. It's not necessary at all, that a wealthy person got money in a criminal way, nevertheless I doubt, that all our millionaires are honest-to-goodness businessmen. And society that consists of mostly poor and not blind citizens feels disturbance and, therefore, can't be quiet. It would be necessary to fix the balance, first of all through consolidation of law, review of taxation system and calling to account those, who with their actions bring Ukraine to this miserable state. Because our state is not poor, I don't consider it to be poor, it is just deserted. If a blanket hasn't been mended for a long time, and one can't get the new one, this blanket will eventually start tearing at the seams, especially since it will be pulled in different directions. This image resembles me our Ukraine much. And it's very painfully, that the situation like this takes place. As there is a considerable gap between the poor people, who don't have enough food, cannot use rights guaranteed by the state, say, for education (in some villages because of remoteness of schools and absence of transportation network children cannot go to school for years), however, the concerts of Russian stars of various kind with expensive tickets are mainly sold out. Maybe, the system is not perfect somewhere, and it ought to be corrected. And when so-called middle class appears, when it becomes a face of our state, then, probably, the borders will open for us, and Europe will stop being afraid of poverty-stricken Ukrainians.

What is, in your opinion, the contribution of your country in Europe's future; and what is Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in European political, economical and social processes?

There formed a situation in Ukraine, under conditions of which decisions, on which can depend the destiny of the state and the nation, sometimes even aren't brought to people's attention. For example, Ukraine's participation in solution of Iraqi problem: overwhelming majority of the population actively express their discontent with this decision, but officials absolutely don't pay attention to the will of their people. Maybe it's a right decision, maybe, it can make better Ukraine's image on the international scene, but an ordinary citizen doesn't understand — what for we need that? That's why it is difficult to answer the question, what contribution our state can make, because authorities won't deliberate with people and will get its own way. It's unpleasantly to admit, but there is an impression that nothing depends on people in Ukraine. On the other hand, our state has an experience to keep peace and order in society, yield to no provocation, avoid inter-ethnic and inter-confessional conflicts, at least those that can bring about human sacrifices. This is a positive experience that much depends on mental peculiarities of Ukrainians. I'm sure, that Ukrainian culture and science will make an invaluable contribution to European culture and science. For this, however, one should cardinally change approaches of the government to financing of these spheres, prevent drain of "brains" and "talents" from Ukraine. Science and culture make progress in society; it's as important element, as the throat for human body. They are to be stimulated and not blocked, and then it will be possible to talk about Ukraine's role in all-European processes.

Today's EU expansion and its influence on Ukraine.

European Union, as I already said, — is a great experience, which we should study, and introduce, what is useful for our state. And close vicinity is a unique opportunity to touch it. However, in addition to positive moments, which can't be denied, I see negative ones as well. For instance, permissiveness and, to put it mildly, doubtful morals that like tsunami wave covered our society and our cultural space — they are not typical to our society. It's quite possible, that this is an indicator of freedom of choice in the society, but nobody makes choose low-grade product. Our society can just prove to be unprepared, like a healthy person who goes to the tropical zone without necessary vaccination and can get ill. I don't urge to "blinders", models and walls, but permissiveness without limits very negatively affects the young generation. Of course, if the authority of our state increases, we will be able to influence on the processes in Ukraine. And in general, EU experience is very useful for Ukraine, especially in the field of ecology.

The role of neighbouring countries, which soon must become EU members (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia), in realization of "Ukraine's European choice".

There can't be doubts, that the mentioned countries have close and long-standing contacts with Ukraine and its citizens. Therefore, much of what they are have to "pass through themselves" during their entry into EU, they will be able to hand us in adapted state, and this is good. Experience of these countries is especially important in cultural sphere, because they have also outlived crisis period, and now isn't everything all right at them; but Poland cinematograph, say, is developing and isn't standing still. It means, that the matter is not in crisis, but in attitude to this problem sphere. One should study their experience and try to use those things, that don't contradict our conditions.

An effective way of Ukraine towards European structures: independently or along with Russia?

Ukraine hasn't simply proclaimed its independence; it became an independent state that carries out independent foreign and domestic policy. That's why there is no point in thinking, whether we should move toward West independently, or along with Russia. Of course, independently! And one doesn't need talks about brotherhood that as if can arise between Russia and Ukraine. We've got different national interests, therefore one should first of all think of them, turn into strong and independent state, and present itself on the world scene. Surely, we should support and develop both economical and cultural contacts, but it's necessary to remember, that the borders between our states, made ten years ago, have done their part — we follow our way. Even if we have common aim and the same methods — our way is individual. Besides, Russia has many problems, huge territories, where it cannot establish order, a war in Chechnya. What for do we need its problems? We should actively move forward, as a separate state.

What are the interests of Ukrainian business in EU countries?

Ukraine has rich potential. It's unpleasant for me to hear, that Ukraine is an agricultural state. Because it means backwardness, slowdown on the level of the Middle Ages. I believe that high technologies and deserted industry renew soon, and our new bourgeoisie starts not only accumulating, but also investing money in development of our economy. But in present-day stage our business is unlikely to be able not just maintain, but even formulate its interests in European space.

What would you advise to change in the policy of EU concerning Ukraine?

Ukrainians — the bearers of great mentality, tolerance, diligence, can survive in any conditions, but, unfortunately, there are no grounds to hope for swift positive changes. Our people are thoughtless, not confident in their force, unable actively affect the course of events. Therefore, probably, without an active interference of EU, we shan't soon achieve results, which we hope for. Of course, the question isn't about interference in internal affairs of our state, — just about "teaching" of Ukrainians by Europeans. The consciousness needs to be brought up. And "a school of protest" — isn't for Ukrainians, because we are peaceful and non-aggressive people. In order to find a right way, one should learn, and civilized Europe can play this role, especially since it's of EU interests — stable Ukraine will be more beneficial neighbour for EU, than unstable.

The problems of visas and migration..

I don't consider visas to be a problem. It's a norm elaborated by states in the course of their development, therefore I can't see any negative in visas. However, many Ukrainians go to European countries in search of a job, this is their only possible earnings, and visas introduction can hamper them. On the other hand, the majority of them work in those countries that have already visa regime with our state. I'm not sure, that in the present stage there is more effective system of our state's protection, because many people enter Ukraine, for instance, from China, Afghanistan, Caucasus states etc. This is a threat for Ukraine, so, one should apprehend visa regime in a normal way. Moreover, borders and visas won't hold our people if the situation in Ukraine deteriorates. State's borders must be under control.

Common and differences between Ukraine and "Western culture". Is Ukraine a part of the Western World?

It's good, that this question is at the end — it promotes positive answer. Of course, Ukraine is a part of Europe and European culture. Since Europe is big and different. Any variety is a positive moment. And the point isn't only that geographically our territory is European, it is in the cultural tradition. Fraternal schools that were built in different cities of Ukraine were a unique phenomenon, but at the same time they were a part of European civilization processes, and united our nation with all developed European nations.

It's quite possible and clear, that an ordinary Europe's citizen doesn't perceive Ukrainians and Ukraine on the whole as a part of European world. We are the East for them, a part of Asia. But even when our people go to European countries in search of a job, they favourably stand out among other earners for their cultural level, ability to adapt and to work. Probably, this displays some European roots lost by Ukrainian people.