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International ProgramThe Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations |
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The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). |
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Interview with Mykola PlawjukA Head of Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, last President of Ukrainian People's Republic in exile What means "Ukraine's European choice" for you?As to my opinion — it is an adoption of those juridical, cultural, ethical-moral and economical norms of organization of social life that showed their vitality and ability from the standpoint of development of civilized societies in the XX century, having passed the trials in Western Europe. And to my mind, they are going to be the same in XXI century. European choice — is Ukraine's gradual movement to these norms and standards in different spheres of living. Reasons and obstacles of Ukraine's participation in the processes of European integration.I think they can be divided at least in two groups. The first one is our internal reasons. Each society has to have an elite, a leading section that knows, where it leads and directs the society. Unfortunately, Ukrainian elite was isolated for a long time from practical intercourse with Europe and was oriented rather in other direction. And non-understanding of ponderability and importance of orientation to the other system than before is one of internal obstacles for Ukraine's active steps toward European integration. I'm not going to talk here about peculiar complex of conservatism, because many nations inherent these features — it's always easier to continue that is known, than follow the new ways. Especially since integration to Europe isn't just a pleasant affair — it's a severe competition in economy, requirements to change a certain scale of values, and it demands reorientation of each person and a society on the whole. The second thing. Nobody in Europe waits for us. A part of Europe considers us to be a contender; the other part of Europe is so jumped-up, that it would like to be an "elder brother" for Central and Eastern Europe. And this is also an important — negative — factor of Ukraine's European integration. Besides, both in Europe and all over the world exist national interests. And Ukraine's national interests don't always coincide with national interests of other European countries. In general, NATO and military organizations are more interested in Ukrainians, rather than economical circles that are much less interested in Ukraine's integration to Europe. Besides, one shouldn't forget about traditional impacts of Russia, which doesn't want Ukraine to integrate to Europe and tries at least slow down Ukraine's movement in European direction, or stop it at all. Thus, an active process of Ukraine's integration to Europe is hampered by both internal, and external reasons. What is, in your opinion, the contribution of your country in Europe's future; and what is Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in European political, economical and social processes?To my mind, Ukraine can take a worthy place in Europe. We'll start with economical aspects. Now mankind enters an epoch, when a problem about the food for millions citizens of the earth takes on special significance. And Ukraine with its complex of agricultural production can be a serious factor both for Europe and other continents. Ukraine's geographical position is of stupendous importance for Europe with its orientation to the markets of Asia and the Middle East: I anticipate, that in next decades the main motorways and communication lines will pass through Ukraine's territory. I don't mention our natural resources and industrial potential, with which we can enrich Europe in its competition with Northern America or Asian states. So, in economical connection I see an important positive contribution of Ukraine for the benefit of all Europe. Cultural aspect. Today's globalisation acquires shapes of cultural expansion of Americanism, which in many respects differs from assessment of cultural values of Europe, which is a cradle of Christian civilization of mankind. In this respect the elements of Ukrainian culture can strengthen cultural values of European continent. One more moment. Peculiar to Ukrainians sense of social justice, though it was more declarative, than real, completely finds itself in the course of European traditions. Europeans solve economical problems making greater accent on social justice, than northern Americans do. And in this respect Ukrainian experience and traditions also can be useful for European community. In political aspect Ukraine will be an important factor as well. In our sight there spreads a game between Atlantic partners — the USA and so-called "old Europe". I think, that a part of "old Europe" will draw attention to the country with 48 million of people. Our neighbourhood with Russia is also of great importance. The question 'with whom Ukraine will be': with Europe or Russia is also significant for Europe. In general, the reality of our contribution to all-European economical, social and political processes much depends on how quickly we'll settle our internal affairs. We should first of all rely upon our own strength and act on the level of higher standards, than we've been acting during the last century. All in all, Ukraine has no grounds to approach Europe with insignificancy complex, because we can not only take something from Europe, but also give it much. Today's EU expansion and its influence on Ukraine.For a short period it can be painfully for us, because now we are just "neighbours", but not a part of Europe. But in the long term this is at the same time both challenge and requirement for us: if we really are going to integrate to Europe, we have to draw conclusions from today's EU expansion. I mean not so much Europeism in Europe, rather than Europeism in Ukraine. And the fact that our neighbours have already become EU members means, that they better than we organized their internal life. Present-day expansion of European community resembles us that we've done little for European countries to be interested in us. But sometimes this process insults Ukraine: from the one hand, a part of Euro-Atlantic complex presses down on Ukraine, saying, determine with your multivectoriality and act in accordance with your statements about integration to Europe; and on the other hand Mr. Romano Prodi and other bureaucrats venture to announce that Ukraine has no place in EU. And this negatively influences on social opinion in our state concerning the process of integration to European community. The role of neighbouring countries, which soon must become EU members (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia), in realization of "Ukraine's European choice".An important role in realization of this choice belongs to Poland that became a peculiar reviewer of Ukrainian affairs not only in European, but also in Western-Atlantic circle. Therefore cooperation with Poland is very important for us. On the other hand, flirtation between Paris, Berlin and Moscow remands Poles of divisions of Poland's territory between its neighbours that took place in the past. In this connection Poland is interested in Ukraine's joining Europe and will promote this. The matter about Hungary and Slovakia is slightly of other kind; however, their experience and orientation to European patterns is an example for us. I believe that these countries, in particular Slovakia, will master the rules of European behaviour quicker, because I think some aspects of relations between Ukraine and Slovakia don't meet European standards yet. And it's also our fault that we allow forced slovakisation of Ukrainians living there and Slovakia's strengthening of so-called complexes of rusynstvo. As to Ukrainian-Hungarian relations, they have fewer painful problems, the problems exist though. In general, we have all grounds to expect neighbourly relations both with Hungary and with Slovakia, and close cooperation with Poland that will take into account geopolitical realities and meet national interests of the both countries. An effective way of Ukraine towards European structures: independently or along with Russia?Each state, each nation has its national interests. Interests of Ukraine and Russia are not identical; therefore each state should solve its problems on its own. Ukraine should form its path to European structures without taking into consideration how Russia responds to it. I would be glad, if Russia also joined European community, having listened to Degol's conception "Europe from Atlantic Ocean to Ural". I want to believe, that in Russia will win pro-European tendencies that would promote weakening of imperial complex traditional for it. It would be beneficial both for Russia and for Ukraine. What are the interests of Ukrainian business in EU countries?First of all, it's attainment of world standards. If we realise, that we must bring our standards to the level of European and world market — it will already be a great achievement. Everything else will depend on many components. We should get accustomed to severe competition. In order to get a foothold in European markets, Ukrainian society should follow the way of post-war Japan, having analysed its potential and said "We can't do everything better, than others, but there are spheres, in which we can find our place in the outlets". And only after this, taking into consideration our potential, we should decide what specific spheres of business we are going to develop at ourselves. Being a part of European community, we can originally bargain: we can be buyers of European production, but in order to buy it, we have to be sellers of our production. But we can achieve it only when we become a member of World Trade Organisation, introduce European standards of industrial and agricultural production, become competitive in either production spheres. It's difficult to say in what spheres exactly, but they exist though. We have a high scientific potential and sufficient industrial base, which is not totally outdated. And if we can create national program of economy development, we can become a worthy partner in European business. But this requires additional analysis. What would you advise to change in the policy of EU concerning Ukraine?More strictly put a question about necessity of reforms in Ukraine, and at the same time avoid statements that it hasn't place in Europe. Because if EU leaders make such statements, it's difficult to speak about some European integration. This is a wrong policy. In my opinion, EU should elaborate such program of bilateral actions that would be real for us. Sometimes Europeans demand of us more, than they are ready to do themselves; and relations between Ukraine and the Council of Europe evidence this. As an example one can cite a requirement to bring in life the Charter of languages of minority groups. This is an absolute example that one demands of us more, than, for instance, of France, which isn't ready and isn't going to meet requirements like these. The problems of visas and migration.Ukraine doesn't control visa situation and in this respect depends on good will of its western neighbours. As we can see, Poland and Slovakia refused the payment of their visas, and it will promote more close contacts between our citizens and the citizens of other countries. As to migration problem, then, Portugal example shows us that this problem should be solved on the level of bilateral relations. We should agree with all countries, where Ukrainians depart in search of a job, in order that civilized norms and rules were applied to Ukrainian citizens. This should be done as soon as possible, because today's situation is a source of conflicts, and it influences negatively on Ukraine's image in Europe. As an example one can cite sudden deterioration of attitude to Ukrainians and Ukraine in Czechia. It speaks that Ukrainians' stay in this country isn't settled by bilateral agreements yet. And one should solve this problem now, without expecting that we will be affiliated to European community. I believe, that both governments of European countries and Ukrainian one will understand it in the near future. Common and differences between Ukraine and "western culture". Is Ukraine a part of the Western World?You know, such notions, as "western culture" require more precise definition. Whether "bad Americanism" is a part of the western culture or not? Nevertheless, one can say, that in general the notion "western culture" is not very positive now. It is mostly connected with achievements of human civilization, which, however, at angle of expediency and standardisation drive in deeper roots and peculiar features. I'm a conservator in this respect. Without opposing new modern trends in literature, music, singing etc. I wouldn't like however, that at angle of modernisation of XXI century or western culture we lost our features that with their deep roots connected with peculiarities of our historical being. And therefore I'm not very anxious that we are not considered to be western Europeans. It's enough for me that we are just Europeans, and an adjective "western" doesn't impose upon me much. There were times, when Ukraine played a very original role in Europe, when our writing became a state language of our neighbours, when Western Europe was honoured to keep in touch with us in prince's epoch. Chivalry of our Cossacks wasn't worse than chivalry of Polish gentry and representatives of martial laws of the states of Western Europe. As to the "Western world", then this notion arouses many questions. Is North America or Australia a part of the Western world? I understand, that division of humanity into "Western" and "Eastern" have been formed during the cold war, when the Soviet Union and its satellites were identified as "Eastern" world, while Europe and North America — as "Western" world, but this division is very relative. That's why in some aspects we are rather a part of the "Western" world. For example, our "Russka pravda" ("Russian Truth") was created much earlier, than "Magna Carta", which Englishmen are proud of. That is, in XI century we had our own code of legal regulations that qualifies us as a civilized and well-organised nation. If the question is about constitutional aspect, one should mention the "Constitution" by Pylyp Orlyk. And though it haven't been applied in practice, it doesn't mean, that there were no thinkers among our people at the beginning of XVIII century, who thought by categories peculiar to this document. And let's remember our philosopher Hryhoriy Skovoroda! I think, that in positive sense of this word, we are a "western" part of civilization and culture, though we always had our own features connected with Byzantine and other influences. These influences have been noted in church-religious complex; and I don't consider, that Ukrainian Greek-Catholic church with peculiar to it eastern formalism is worse, than Rome-Catholic western church. I think, that we are both "western" and "eastern" at the same time. Of course, from the standpoint of economic development I'd like us to be much more "western", than now, but in cultural aspects keep our features, even if they are "eastern". Copyright © Fundacja Batorego
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