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International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Ella Libanova

An Advisor of the President of Ukraine, professor, doctor of economy.

What means "Ukraine's European choice" for you?

I consider, that "Ukraine's European choice" means first of all introduction of European standards in state policy, in social life and social psychology. To achieve this aim, it is necessary to carry out a number of reforms: economic reforms, reform of control system (administrative reform and reform of corporate management). It is necessary to change social psychology gradually, to form state policy taking into consideration social psychology, because we don't draw attention to it today, and this is an important moment that can guarantee success of those or other measures, which our authority tries to introduce. We always talk about public opinion, but we don't consider it as a serious, impellent factor. The President of the USA Bill Clinton explains people all the details of insignificant, in our opinion, problems at the national television. There is no such practice in Ukraine; we consider such things to be minor. Recently Kyiv Institute of Sociology published the results of a survey. The results didn't pretend to representativeness, as the survey was conducted within the framework of a certain project; nevertheless they are interesting. The task of the survey was to define, how rural population saw its role in the society. The question "Who assigns the situation in the village?" almost everyone answered "A head of village Soviet". The question "Who should assign the situation in the village?" they answered again "A head of village Soviet". So, the population is powerless, it can do nothing and agrees to it! In any EU country such situation is absolutely impossible. Of course, it isn't easy to change the psychology of people who got used to slavery and patriarchal-paternalistic relations in the society. But nobody expects Ukraine in Europe tomorrow. The matter is not, whether we will be admitted to NATO or not, whether we will be appointed an associated member of EU or not. It's necessary to have more, than status, in order to become really a European country, worthy to be EU member. Turkey has this status, but how European this country is? From the other hand, Switzerland isn't EU member, but it is a European state according to all characteristics. So, Ukraine's European choice — are the changes in Ukraine by European example, irrespective of political declaration of some Ukraine's political forces.

Reasons and obstacles of Ukraine's participation in the processes of European integration.

Ukraine has a serious reason of taking part in European processes, and namely — geographical position. If our state were situated in the Central Asia, the question would be understandable. But since there is a geographical centre of Europe in Ukraine, the interest to the processes in EU is absolutely justified. The main problem and misfortune is in our Asian, or more exactly — Byzantine mentality, in our inactivity and at the same time in our rally. Our people like attending meetings, but at the same time they don't want to do anything. Hitherto Slavs', and in particular Ukrainians' favourite story is a fairy tale about Illya Muromets, who had lied on the stove for 33 years, and then he got up and coped with everything. It is a nice story, but everything is different in real life. Do you remember, what is the difference between Buratino and Pinokkio? Pinokkio led children to school, and Buratino — to the fairy Fools Country. In fairy tales, especially author's ones, people's psychology is well depicted. How long had we been looking for Polubotok's gold? And how livened up social attention to clairvoyants and magic specialists? This is a shame for a developed nation and a state. The main thing we must do now — is to form the middle class, and for that it is necessary to revise taxation policy. One thousand and twenty hryvnas is a sum exceeding of which in profits requires payment a state 30% of the profit. And who earns in Ukraine 1020 Hr.? And one shouldn't forget, that 1020 Hr. some years ago and 1020 Hr. now — are absolutely different sums. What for does the state need to take away earned (as a rule by hard work) money? State's policy is evidently directed to secure the interests of poor sections of the population (the rebellion of which is unfavourable for power), and of rich citizens (who mainly don't pay attention to such trifles, as tax payment). A normal state should stake on the middle class, on those people, whom it fleeces through taxation system. Benefits policy, for instance, a program of housing grants, — is a good idea, but it's directed to protection of the poor people, who aren't able to pay for habitation and public utilities, and hits the middle class, that according to its profits must pay the full amount.

What is, in your opinion, the contribution of your country in Europe's future; and what is Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in European political, economical and social processes?

Firstly, if we can guarantee stability in our state, carrying out of reforms, not rushing from one side to other, but carrying out of a gradual, and policy, then it will in some way guarantee the stability in Europe. Why do our states-neighbours perform as Ukraine's attorneys in Europe and in the world? Because unstable Ukraine is, first of all, a headache for these countries. Secondly, I'd like Ukraine to say its word in culture, art and humanitarian field. The possibility to become Europe's raw materials appendage always threatened and now threatens Ukraine. Recently I've revised researches regarding urbanization rates in Ukraine. We got used, that Ukraine is an agricultural region, which specializes in agrarian production. But Canada or, say, Argentina have the same volumes of agricultural production, but the share of urban population in these countries is much higher — 80% at them, and 67% at us. And urban population is another way of living, more access to social conjuncture, and broader world outlook. And I would like Ukraine to develop harmoniously, like all civilized world, not only Europe, but also North America and Australia. But here the question was about a desirable role of Ukraine. Unfortunately, Ukraine's real role — is a supply of cheap workforce, quite qualified, quite law-abiding, that adapts well to European conditions. I don't mean our girls with doubtful business-plans; the matter is about the real workers. Nowadays Ukraine is a supplier of grain. And I'd like Ukraine to export flour, not grain. Ukraine is a competitor for western producers: for example, our "AN" just isn't admitted to European markets. Unfortunately, Ukraine cares for its image very badly. For example, today in Internet I saw the information, that one our company had been declared to be very corrupt. I opened the site and looked through the list to know, which is the neighbour of our company. It turned out, that the list contains representatives of all developed countries, not African states, but the Netherlands, Great Britain, the USA, France and Germany. Nevertheless, our journalists present this information in the way, as if our country finds itself among the worst representatives of the world, the most decent of which at best is Nigeria. We know, what bad things we have, but is there necessity to add more?

Today's EU expansion and its influence on Ukraine.

If anyone in Ukraine had an illusion, that in the nearest future we'll be affiliated with EU, then large-scale expansion, that we witness, destroys all illusions. Let's hope Europe will cope with its new members. If to consider this problem from the other side, than Ukraine's neighbours will become a part of European Union, and accordingly their attitude to Ukraine will be determined by EU norms and requirements, but we are neighbours for a long while, and it's for the best. Our relations, for example with Poland, are very close, tested by years, and through relations with Poland we will cooperate with EU.

The role of neighbouring countries, which soon must become EU members (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia), in realization of "Ukraine's European choice".

In my opinion, the main role of neighbouring countries — is to hand us the rules of behaviour, norms and standards that uses EU. The matter isn't, that they will assert or defend our interests in Europe. While entering EU, Poland inevitably adopts standards of behaviour, norms and rules (of economical, business, political and social behaviour). Contacting with us, Poland will pass these standards us; and the share of Ukrainians who work in Poland, is high, and they will "transport" to us these standards. We can study, read and examine them as long as we want, but the system of European standards will work only when each person realises, that he/she can't live in any other way, but in conformity with these rules and standards. It's impossible to explain, such things penetrate into consciousness, and this is not one-year problem. Economical aid is minor: how Poland, Hungary and Slovakia can help Ukraine, which is larger than they are? An example of this can be a difficult process of revival of former GDR lands after Germany's joining, and those billions of marks that are invested in these lands. But the progress won't be noticeable soon.

An effective way of Ukraine towards European structures: independently or along with Russia?

There is a serious danger for Ukraine to become Russia's appendage and find itself at the "tail-end" with respect to Europe and European structures. I don't think we should orient ourselves to Russia, we remain behind it already. It's necessary to realize, that Ukraine is an independent state, we shouldn't look round, what will the USA, or Russia, or Brussels, or Strasburg say, but decide on our own, what we long for. By the way, Czechia followed this way, it was said there: "You can listen to everybody, but we have our own "peasant" mind". Of course, there is a certain dependence of Ukraine on Russia; it is caused by Ukraine's poverty and old ties, which remained from soviet times. But this dependence can increase and do nothing. This is an inevitable situation: Mexico depends on the USA, Canada depends on the USA, and Ukraine depends on the giant neighbour. But we must gradually overpass this situation.

What are the interests of Ukrainian business in EU countries?

Taking into consideration peculiarities of European market, its occupation and competition, we can talk about cooperation, participation of Ukrainian companies in transnational corporations. Two-sided cooperation with some EU members can be prospective. The problem is, that our neighbours are competitive in the spheres, where we are competitive too. For instance, in Poland food, light industry and agriculture are more developed and profitable. Besides, European markets are oversaturated. In these conditions it's difficult to determine the prospective of Ukrainian business.

What would you advise to change in the policy of EU concerning Ukraine?

Once the USA proposed Europe "Marshal's plan". Ukraine needs something like it, if Europe wants to see Ukraine a worthy, stable and safe neighbour. Not credits, but an integral, complex program of economy revival is necessary here. And "Marshal's plan" is the most accurate definition. Besides, the direction of scientific exchange and scientific collaboration is also prospective.

The problems of visas and migration.

I didn't like, that EU policy strictly puts a question about the return by Ukraine of illegal migrants detained at our western border. Borders' construction is a difficult procedure that needs much money. And here we can't manage without European countries. Unfortunately, our eastern border is very clear, but even under such conditions Ukrainian frontier guards could hold up a flow of illegal aliens, if we got some assistance in construction of points of trespassers' receiving and keeping. This is of EU interests.

Common and differences between Ukraine and "western culture". Is Ukraine a part of the Western World?

In my opinion, belonging to the western world, "western culture" is determined, firstly, by the rule of the Catholic church, and secondly — by common European history. Even Orthodox Bulgaria and Greece are more organic parts of the western world. We, our people too much depend on the Orthodox Church, and recently these phenomena became more acute. Probably, my opinion depends on the fact, that I'm an atheist, I don't know. I'm not delighted, that either church or shop is predominantly built in Ukraine. Dutch say, that each Dutchman visits the church three times in life: when he is born, when he marries, and when he dies. Of course, they visit church more often, but this phrase depicts attitude to the church. At us Orthodoxy and religiousness acquired hypertrophied shape: everything is sanctified, we always wait for a kind "tsar-father". Miners don't go to the law because of arrears of wages, don't make check-ups on the level of trade unions, — they go to the president to demand and implore. And unfortunately, I can't see the way out of this situation.

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