Fundacja im. Stefana Batorego

International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Leonid Kravchuk

Ex-president of Ukraine, MP, head of the Social Democratic Party (united) faction.

What does "Ukraine's European choice" mean to you? What is common and what is different between Ukraine and "the Western culture"? Is Ukraine a part of the Western world?

As regards Social Democrats and me personally, both in forming of plans for the future and in estimation of the present political and economic transformations we orient themselves to time-tested European principles and ideas, and this orientation is crucial (deciding).

The thesis about European choice has the meaning which is both wider and more fundamental than those terms that are very often used by our well-known politicians. Forms of state organization, as well as understanding of democracy, moral and ethic standards have been already formed in the world. And they were being developed in the course of centuries, not during a year or a decade.

Fundamentals of life and state organization in Europe were being formed in parallel with evolution of its nations and cultures.

Ukraine has always been a part of Europe, both in geographical and cultural sense. Therefore, we are able to understand and appreciate the society built by the Europeans, better than that of any other model.

But all this does not uncover the sense of "European choice" completely. The main thing in this is the direction of development, strategic reference points for state construction and for forming of a new society. Ways may differ; means and instruments may be different, too, but there must be a goal and a waymark. First, authoritative institutions need them, — that is, those who form public opinion, set tasks and organize their realization and introduction. If every link of a state mechanism moves in its own, most convenient to it, direction, then no common steps toward the determined goal will be taken. Better to say, nobody could forecast the results of such chaotic movement.

Thus, European choice implies the choice of a strategic goal, a model of upbuilding of a state and a society, direction of movement toward a civilized social and moral community of free citizens.

Causes and obstacles of Ukraine's participation in processes of European integration. What would you advise to change in the EU's policy as regards Ukraine?

It is time for Ukraine to stop its vacillation between the West and the East, as while holding to such a position we push ourselves out of the road. If we wish to be treated with respect, we have to determine our position, and this determination must be done in favour of the European choice. We have to declare our wish to become a member of all European structures, put in all the necessary applications and accept the plan of work on accomplishment of this historic task.

The political aim of Ukraine's development is to become a full member of the commonwealth of European states. I think nobody would object to this thesis. Differences exist in approaches and terms offered by Ukrainian elite and the EU's officials.

The EU interprets Ukraine's accession to the European Union as an "admission" to democracy, economic situation etc, given to the country. That is, as a kind of a permit: to let or not to let Ukraine go into Europe. At the same time, the EU's officials do not consider Ukraine as a part of Europe a priori. They are doubtful about to whose "responsibility zone" the country belongs: to Russian, American or European one.

As for the Ukrainians, as well as for me personally, there is no need to prove an indisputable fact that Ukraine has always been, is being and will be a European country. And European integration is essential for us in a sense that it is a straight way to European values and models of development of a society. And we will follow this way irrespectively of that whether certain politicians wish to see us among the European family or not.

The processes of joining to certain European institutions like the European Union is quite another matter. Of course, every institution of the kind has its own rules, statutes, administrative bodies etc. We cannot ignore this. The process of European integration is going rather slowly so far but with confidence. We are often reproached: you do this wrong, you do that wrong. But nobody compares the present situation with that one we had ten years ago. In those times we "did wrong" much more often. During the years of independence Ukraine has achieved a number of positive changes. And ten years later the conversation will go easier, when there will be left only artificial reproaches to our country.

How do you see your country's contribution to the future of Europe; Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in all-European political, economic and social processes?

If to compare the population of country-members of the European Union and that of Ukraine, one can see that only Germany, Great Britain, Italy and France are bigger than our country. Nevertheless, our potential lies not only in quantity of inhabitants but in their cultural and educational quality. Not to mention our agricultural complex. Therefore, our perspectives are rather considerable. And the result depends on mutual wish to develop and to cooperate.

Until all together we set the single task — to build an economically and spiritually rich nation's life that would correspond with European standards; until we start its accomplishment; until we create such a system of power that would guarantee democratic development of the society — we should not say a word about Ukraine's role in Europe and in the world.

Integration into all-European and Euroatlantic structures should be considered in complex with participation in regional and international political, economic, financial and other organizations and institutions like OSCE, Council of Europe, the European Union. As regards the last one, — of course, there are certain differences and peculiarities on the way of integration into the EU and NATO.

In this context, Ukraine has to fulfill its obligations and bring its legislation to correspondence with norms and standards accepted by the Council of Europe as soon as possible; to increase the general tempo of realization of democratic, social and economic reforms in all spheres; to continue integration of our domestic economy into European and the world one; to guarantee freedom of speech and other rights and liberties of citizens of Ukraine.

The EU's present enlargement and its influence upon Ukraine. The problem of visas and migration from Ukraine to the EU.

The EU's long-expected enlargement is going to happen at last. It is for the first time that it reaches the boundary of the former "iron curtain". This is a positive step. But there are certain problems in that. There exists possibility of that the EU's enlargement may stop at the so-called Curzon's line, having left Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and other CIS countries "outside". This is not a pro-Ukrainian policy at all, and we must do everything we can to explain this and to change such an attitude toward Ukraine.

Role of our neighbouring countries intending to become the EU members soon (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia), in realization of "Ukraine's European choice".

Let me repeat once again that European choice for us is a way to European values and to upbuilding of the society. Our nearest neighbours that are preparing to enter the EU soon — Poland, Hungary and Slovakia — follow the same direction. It is quite another matter that they have gained more experience in building of a democratic, juridical state and are showing better indices of their social and economic development. And one more thing — they achieved this during the last fifteen years. On the other hand, these countries have been being our neighbours and partners for a long time, — therefore, the experience of their adaptation to conditions and requirements of the European Union is very important for Ukraine. We have a lot to learn from them, and we do learn from them, as they are more open for us than the "founders" of the European Union.

Ukraine's effective way to European structures: independently or together with Russia?

There has been a lot of lively debate on Ukraine's joining to the Euro-Asian economic community and on the doctrine "To Europe — together with Russia". Somebody has even built a bridge Moscow — Brussels — Kyiv. To my mind, we must say a decisive "no" to such a philosophy. Ukraine has been being an independent sovereign state for more than ten years, and it can be neither a territory where anyone could walk wherever he or she likes nor a land which can be trampled by anyone's boot.

The formula "To Europe — together with Russia" is an unclear one, it poses more questions than gives answers. In fact, there is no political force opposing mutually beneficial, pragmatic relations with Russia, in Ukraine. On the other hand, the objective need of cooperation between the two countries is being impeded by pretensions of Russian Federation's political elite to domination over the post-Soviet space. Despite official declarations on taking into consideration of the CIS partners' — first, Ukraine's — interests, made by Russia's leaders, there are few of those who realizes the necessity of equal in rights relations with Ukraine. The question must be posed unambiguously: together with Russia or under Russia? If together with Russia as the partners which are equal in rights, then such an approach should be welcomed, as this is in both nations' interests.

Eurochoice does not imply reduction of economic, cultural and political relations with Russia and other countries of the SIC. Their necessity is being dictated by economic and political advisability, as well as both nations' historical past and present. However, both we and the Russians have to think about the future, about technical-scientific achievements, about civilized life standards and organization of life after democratic models. Everyone understands that these can be found on the West. Therefore, choice of a course is the choice of future for our people.

And these things should not be opposed to each other: If we take a course toward Europe, then, allegedly, we are against Russia's interests. This would have been right only if Russia opposed Europe and followed its own, peculiar way of development. But the country has determined its European choice, too. There are certain details in this, but they are not so important. Therefore, we do not have to be afraid that Russia may be annoyed at our civilized protection of our own interests. Otherwise we can get nothing.

Present state and perspectives of European business in Ukraine and Ukrainian business in the EU.

Ukraine is looking for gradual integration into the Western European structures. There are today's economic realities that must be taken into consideration. But this does not mean that we have to speak about the future in the same phlegmatic way. Ukraine's future is its European choice. And this formula must be applied to well-defined plans of practical work for Ukraine's Supreme Rada, the country's president and its Government. If there are no such plans; if even the fundamentals of our domestic and foreign policy are absent; when vectors of our foreign policy are being constantly changed, — then why speak about the state's course and who will be able to understand us? In this situation Ukraine's participation in the world processes should not be limited by the choice between either pro-Russian or pro-Western orientation. In both cases it is necessary to develop our country's inner potential first and to improve parity relations with other countries, — the relations based on common, corporate interests, not on the necessity to support one or another side.

The thesis that "nobody expects us in Europe" must be rejected. They do not expect those who are weak. They do not expect those who did not determine his own wishes and the means of their achievement.

Of course, we must enter Europe as a strong and economically developed country. Therefore, the South-Eastern direction as a spacious market for our domestic commodities, advanced technologies and investments is rather perspective one in Ukraine's foreign policy. We could earn our tail-coat there, to feel in it comfortable in Europe.