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International Program

The Enlarged EU and Ukraine: New Relations

contact:
Grzegorz Gromadzki
ggromadzki@batory.org.pl,
Anna Wróbel
awrobel@batory.org.pl

The project is financed by the Stefan Batory Foundation (Warsaw), International Rennaissance Foundation (Kyiv), Open Society Institute (Budapest) and has been supported by the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), financed by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Interviews

Interview with Volodymyr Barabash

President of "Monomakh" public corporation, Vice-president of the Guild of owners of small, medium and privatised enterprises of Ukraine.

What does "Ukraine's European choice" mean to you?

As the things have come round historically, the countries belonging to our region remain behind the European states in such fields as science and engineering, but inasmuch as the interchange in this sphere did not stop, the retardation is not so striking now. However, the most important and rather considerable lag can be observed in the authorities' organisation, in ratio between the power and the society, as well as in comprehension of the authorities' role by both the society and the power itself. For me, the European choice is joining to the body, the community that holds the opinion rather different from our own one, possesses a progressive view of organisation of power, and this is, as for me, an opportunity to bridge our gap successfully. To understand what I mean we can appeal to figures: if in science we are even with Europe, in some fields we are being 10-15 years (or more) behind it, — in the sphere of public life organisation our gap amounts to a hundred years or so. Nevertheless, exactly the gap, filling of which is now being the most urgent need in Ukraine at the present stage, in the process of its overtaking can serve, at the same time, as the stimulus to Ukraine's development towards approach to structures of the European Union.

Causes and obstacles of Ukraine's participation in the processes of European integration.

There can be found two sides, two aspects within any process. I would like to remember our president's indicative, in my opinion, address made on the 10th Anniversary of Ukraine's Independence. If I am not mistaken, he spoke at the opening of a new Kyiv railway station. This was taking place exactly during the celebrations on the Independence anniversary: the World Congress of the Ukrainians was being held, where he (the president) got a good telling-off. This also contemporised with reproaches (from the direction of certain international organisations), cast upon certain countries' leaders, concerning the absence of progress on the way of both economic and political reformation in these countries. And the president "burst", what is indicative, because this characterises the causes of our country's obstructed and difficult advance towards Europe, its structures and standards; he said, "What do they want from us? We were freed from that Soviet Zoo only 10 years ago!". There arises a question — who exactly came from the Zoo? Because even in the Soviet times, there existed dissidents, a Helsinki group, as well as the people who progressively thought of both construction and perspectives of development of social relations, and of world problems, in Ukraine. Moreover, there were also the Baltic countries, where the process of final consciousness-breaking aimed at transformation of a citizen into a "Homo Sovieticus" had not been completed. And, on the other hand, we had Soviet elite who have kept their positions in the power. That is why, speaking about the Soviet Zoo, mister President, probably, meant himself. However, it is known that humans run Zoos, not lions and tigers who live there. What does the matter concern? There is a need to give a chance to be at the head of the state to those people who realise the society's current problems and see the directions in which we have to evolve. Now let us come back to the question. When the Baltic countries became "fed up" with ruling of that Soviet elite (taking into consideration the fact that positive social-political processes were much more successful in those countries), they took chances to invite their future presidents from diasporas, — I mean Latvia and Lithuania, in particular. We have a large and representative diaspora abroad, and it possesses so great achievements in both political and humanitarian field, that there would not have been any problems with that. The question is, whether we can make any progress and dynamics in our country or there is only somebody's need to hold his own leading positions. This is the main obstacle. However, there is also another aspect. I do not think that the elite existing in the Baltic countries at the beginning of their independence was satisfied with representatives of diasporas' coming to power. But such was the opinion dominating in the society, and the elite had no other way out than to submit to it. The question is, whether Ukraine possesses any forces able to convince (or to compel) our old Soviet elite to give up their own positions, or not. Only the community, only the civil society's activity is able to urge our power on such a conclusion, — but here, in Ukraine, we have a lot of complicated problems with this sector. That is why we can single out two reasons: the authorities, who take no care of their country, and the society's lag in its development. By the way, in addition we can say that Ukraine has no experience of its own state organisation, and correspondingly, of the criteria, according to which claims to the ruling authorities should be raised. Therefore, today we can establish a fact that we have no Ukrainian authorities, but a temporary administration, managing its protectorate and searching for variants of more profitable sell of this protectorate. As a businessman and a Ukrainian, I have exactly such an impression, — as a genuine patriot would have never tried to preserve the negative processes taking place in our country. Now Ukraine reminds me of a large continuous Guliaypole , where anybody can roam wherever he likes. Moreover, now one can observe how the figure of Shcherbytsky has been extracted from historical "naphthalene". Do not we have any persons that would be better, worthier of notice than Shcherbytsky? This is because our elite is so insignificant on an international [world] scale, that it is positioning itself next to Shcherbytsky, as if declaring, "We are not worse than he was".

How do you see your country's contribution to the future of Europe; Ukraine's role (real and desirable) in the all-European political, economic and public processes?

There is no sense to discuss the desirable role of Ukraine; I would like it to correspond with the state's dimensions and population, as well as with the great weight of Ukraine in the world's culture and economy, and with the role the country can play potentially. And Ukraine's true role, as for me, naturally arises from its unique geopolitical position. Using Komsomol vocabulary, Ukraine could play the role of an advanced guard on promotion of democratic standards and market reformation in economy towards the East. Inasmuch as events and processes are much more oppressive in countries of the Central Asia than in our country. And Ukraine, in view of those economic and political relations, which had been established in the Soviet period, could have been a bearer of democratic ideas farther on, to the East, — this is as regards the political role. Concerning the economic role — Ukraine can play as a powerful agrarian country. And its mythical function of a "granary" of Europe could have been reanimated, as conditions for agriculture are the most favourable here; so it would be worthwhile to pass this role to Ukraine. Ukraine could have been able to provide the countries of Europe with necessary foodstuff. Second, there exists Ukraine's powerful potential as a tourist "Mecca". Absence of infrastructure prevents the development of this sector of our economy; moreover, there has been formed certain dispensation of the sphere in Europe, and to make certain progress in development of tourist business in Ukraine and bring it to the international level we need a powerful incentive. As regards social processes, I have already spoken of Ukraine's role in the eastern direction. Ukraine possesses broad experience of co-existence of different religions and confessions on common territory — Orthodoxy, Islam, Catholicism, — and this co-existence has always been peaceful. Therefore, the country could have used its experience of different religions' peaceful co-existence for reconciliation of Islamic and Christian worlds, based on its own experience of prevention of such conflicts. Perhaps, this is the direction where Ukraine could play a considerable and very important role. I have my personal attitude toward religious processes in Ukraine, as I think that moral standards of both the society and the authorities must be higher. If Ukraine were a part of Europe, where the Catholic Church is objectively being more progressive and able to undergo changes together with the society, this could have influenced our country positively, as the Orthodox Church's inflexibility is estranging people; the things that are more comprehensible and simpler attract them. If the Orthodox Church adopted the experience of positive changes from the Catholic one, this would have helped to improve the situation, first, in the Orthodox Church itself.

The EU's present enlargement and its influence upon Ukraine.

As while examining any dialectic process, let us consider two sides of the question. First: the EU's present enlargement is going on without Ukraine's participation, and this is very unfavourable for us, as it preserves the processes which I mentioned while answering the first question. We stay beyond the bounds of civilised Europe. On the other hand, for progressive forces this is a stimulus to meet the standards which are to be achieved if a country is pretending to membership in the EU structures. We are aware of the fact that they do not invite us there, and that our present political elite does not long for the membership at all, as it is non-competitive and will not be able to withstand the pressure of progressive management requirements. They possess no potential for self-perfection, and a fear of competition forces them to impede positive processes aimed at European integration, from within, and it is not a question of political processes, but of cultural and legal appreciation of the European civilisation's principles and standards. As a businessman, I am not afraid of competition, as I am always ready for positive changes, what cannot be said as regards our elite. That is why I am deeply convinced that the fact of the EU's enlargement without Ukraine's participation is a great negative for the future of our country, and, on the other hand, this is a good incentive for Ukraine's sound forces to achieve positive changes.

The role of the neighbouring countries intending to become the EU members soon (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia) in realisation of the European integration of Ukraine.

This question also has two sides. On the one hand, we can see these countries' natural attraction to the European Union, what is more objective, because democratic principles are inherent to these states more organically. However, on the other hand, during last hundred years the neighbouring countries have acquired close economic and cultural relations with the countries, which had been being a part of the USSR for a long time, and especially with Ukraine. And in the economic plane, these countries realise that they are the neighbours having their own specific shortcomings which the EU brings to them. Therefore, this economic bridge existing between Ukraine and its neighbouring countries is a positive not only for Ukraine: it allows Poland, Hungary and Slovakia feel more confidently; it is a kind of a safety valve, enabling them to derive from it the economic recourse at their entering, and to soften the economic consequences of joining to the EU. I have been going in for sports all my life, and such a comparison came to my mind: in economy, as in sports, the strongest one always wins; therefore, the EU's new country-members will need an extra economic resource to become the partners worthy of those EU's members which are economically more powerful. And this is, undoubtedly, a positive for both them and our country. These are the communication channels which are to become a catalyst in the process of our transformation, as they form a kind of a "window to Europe" for Ukraine, since the EU's borders have drawn nearer to us. And that is very good, — in fact, we will have Europe near at hand.

Ukraine's effective way to European structures: independently or together with Russia?

What is common and what is different between Ukraine and the "Western culture"? Is Ukraine a part of the Western world?

This question is closely related to the next one, and I would like to tie them together. Ukraine is heterogeneous, and I do not know whether this is good or bad for us. Probably, from the point of view of cultural wealth, the so-called development potential, this is good; but from the standpoint of politics, this is bad, because this heterogeneousness is often used by politicians with unclean hands for the sake of their populist interests.

Undoubtedly, the differences existing between Ukraine and the West are considerable, and the more we would move east — the more noticeable are the differences, because in the plane of both territory and state organisation Ukraine's different regions have always been orientated in different directions: the western Ukraine — towards Austro-Hungarian Empire, the eastern part of the country — towards Russia. Therefore, we could say that the right-bank Ukraine has much in common with the Western culture as regards work and religion, both morally and mentally. As a businessman, I can testify that moral standards are more powerful and effective exactly in the western Ukraine, and I think this is caused by deeper religiousness of its inhabitants. In addition, democracy is coming from the western direction.

Now as regards Ukraine's advance towards the European Union — should we go there independently or together with Russia? One has to keep in mind that different parts of Ukraine have different tendencies, and it is very easy to tear the country to pieces exactly on this ground. We have a deputy, A.Derkach, who in his "Kyivsky Telegraph" is constantly writing that our way to Europe must be done exceptionally together with Russia. To my opinion, we should move towards the EU independently but synchronously. Ukraine has its peculiarities, and the policy must be well considered. To unite Ukraine's western and eastern parts under a single aim, we have to speak of common advance towards the EU. The eastern Ukraine is being orientated towards Moscow more than towards Kyiv; consequently, they should have Russia's intention to enter the European Union as an incentive and a unifying factor. This is profitable for our country; this is in the interests of Ukraine. And, at the same time, this is a substantial factor of political unanimity. Moreover, we cannot ignore Russia's important role in Europe and in the world, the improvement of its relations with the USA and countries of the EU, as well as Ukraine's certain isolation in the international scene on the grounds of recent scandals. In Russia, both democratic and economic processes are being more intensive, and the country is advancing in the European direction faster than we do. And we should make use of this. Therefore, speaking about what is common and what is different between different parts of Ukraine and Europe, I think that we should move towards the EU independently but synchronically with the Russian Federation.

What are your business interests in the countries of the European Union?

Taking into consideration the specific character of my business, based on conservative things rather than advanced technologies, the competitiveness in this field is comparatively tighter than in other spheres. Since as regards my own sphere, the tea business, differences between Ukraine and Europe are insignificant; for me to compete within the EU is easier than for those Ukrainian entrepreneurs whose businesses are based mostly upon scientific achievements. That is why I consider my business successful for the future. Besides, the brand "Monomakh" is related to Byzantium, Kyiv Rus, and the old traditions of our relations with Europe. Therefore, our trademark's promotion will progress easier. In addition, we have relations with the neighbouring countries, as, for example, Poland, Hungary, which can serve as a guarantor of our business' successful development.

Present state and perspectives of European business in Ukraine and Ukrainian business in Europe.

We have not so many competitive sectors of the economy; most of them need modernisation. Today future prospects of Ukrainian business in the EU, taking into account the fact that we turned out to be outside the European playing field, can be estimated as minor. This is caused by our authorities' weakness, their unconsidered policy, first of all. As regards the outlook of European business in Ukraine, this is more interesting and many-sided matter. The territory of the EU's old members has been businessed rather tight, and to create a new business is quite difficult here, as one has fewer opportunities for manoeuvring. Therefore, Ukraine's territory is very promising for them. Of course, some businessmen have grown a bit stout on European food; they are unwilling to exert themselves for developing of these markets. However, the EU has a few quite young, active and ambitious members who are striving for coming up with their more successful neighbours — these are Italy, Greece, and Spain. They are more dynamic and able to run the risk that constitutes an integral part of the whole Ukrainian business. Other European countries come here a bit differently. For example, Germany is coming via Poland, using the experience of communication with this country, with a transfer of risks to another player. However, they can be late. Though active, ambitious Italy and Greece are running risks in another direction. This is a kind of a card play. That is why the perspectives of European business in Ukraine look more interesting than vice versa.

What would you advise to change in the EU's policy as regards Ukraine?

This is a very difficult question. The EU is doing all the things I could advise to do, to the great extent. I often play tennis with a journalist from Poland, who visits European countries and talks to other journalists writing on Ukraine's problems. And those journalists, not indifferent to Ukraine's future (mostly from Poland), advise the others (from Germany, France, etc.), "Do not leave Ukraine! Do not give up on it!" I would advise the European Union the same, too.

The most dangerous thing for Ukraine is to find itself alone [tête-à-tête] with Russia. Unfortunately, our authorities are bringing the country to such a treatment. Our political elite cannot say for sure that they do not want to enter the EU, because it would be very difficult to find any arguments against this. Why does a "red director" of a plant stand against coming of any investors to it; why do investors face such conditions that they are themselves unwilling to put up money in a promising business? Because everybody will have to work in a new fashion, and the director feels comfortable without any changes and do not want to learn. That is the reason why he is non-competitive. The same concerns our authorities. Unable to reorganise their work, they put spokes into the wheel of integration processes until their own problems are not settled. However, they find difficulties in solving of their problems, and we are at a loss to replace these authorities. That is our country's tragedy.

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